Episode 3: Bridging the Craft: Understanding Archway

In this episode of Square Talk, host Jason Clothier sits down with Peter Kinder, Provincial Grand Master, and Noel Manby, Grand Superintendent for Leicestershire and Rutland, to discuss Archway — the new national initiative designed to strengthen the connection between Craft Freemasonry and the Royal Arch.

Together, they explore how Archway supports brethren in understanding the deeper links between the two, why it matters to the Masonic journey, and how it’s being implemented here in Leicestershire and Rutland.

Whether you’re a Freemason curious about taking your next step, or simply interested in learning more about the Craft and its traditions, this conversation offers an open and insightful look into how Freemasonry continues to evolve and connect.

https://b.ugle.org.uk/membership/archway  

https://www.leicestershire-rutlandfreemasons.org.uk/ 

https://www.leicestershire-rutlandfreemasons.org.uk/royal-arch 

Transcript

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SPEAKER_02 0:00

Welcome to Square Talk, the podcast for Freemasons across Leicestershire and Rutland, where we explore the people, ideas and traditions that shape our Masonic journey. I'm Jason Clothier, and in this episode we're focusing on Archway, a new national initiative designed to strengthen the connection between Kraft Freemasonry and the Royal Arch. Archway provides a clear and supportive path for brethren who want to understand how the craft and chapter complete one another, helping every Mason take that important next part in their journey. Joining me today in conversation are Peter Kinder, head of Craft Freemasonry in Leicestershire and Rotland, and Noel Manby, head of Royal Archmasonry in the province. Together they'll share insights on what ArchMay means for Freemason nationally and how it's been brought to life here in Leicestershire and Rutland. So, settle in and join us as we explore how Archway is bridging the craft, helping Masons discover the full story of Freemasonry. Today we're asking what it really means for the craft and royal arch to operate as one organisation. Not at slogans, but in lodges and chapters across Leicestershire and Rotland. Today with us is the head of craft masonry, Peter Kinder, and the grant and the head of Royal Arch Masonry, Noon Mamby. Welcome both to Square Talk.

SPEAKER_01 1:27

Thank you. Nice to be here. Thanks, Jason.

SPEAKER_02 1:31

So we're looking at the um the integration strategy of Grow, Thrive and Prosper and from the United Grand Lodge of England and the Archway Four Chapters and Royal Arch companions to develop and that link between the Royal Arch and Craft Masonry.

SPEAKER_01 2:12

Yes, um craft and Royal Archmasonry have always been very closely linked. We've said for many years it's inextricably linked together. Of course, as we know, um the Royal Arts jewelry is the only one that's allowed to be worn in craft meetings, which shows that close affinity which exists between the craft and the royal arts. So um it's always been very important to me, and I've always sent the message out to as many people who care to listen that joining the Royal Arts should be the next step in Freemasonry. After the third degree, um Royal Arts should come next. Um as we all know, there are lots of other side degrees that people can join, but we're we're very, very strong, and I know Noel supports us obviously, um, to join the Royal Arts before anything else. So the the archway, the one journey, one organization has been at the top of our list for a long time, really. Um and we're glad now that that um London have recognised that we need to bring the two degrees even closer together if we can. And of course, you know, it's very much a part of the Book of Constitutions. The black pages in the in the craft book of constitutions is the Royal Artist. So and the declaration is in the front of the book that's been there since 1813.

SPEAKER_03 3:26

Excellent. I think from our point of view, the Royal Artist's point of view, there's always been a very close relationship in this province, particularly. Although we've had two separate heads of each order, the relationship between them has always been very good and they've always worked very harmoniously together. And that, if you like, is being developed now in a more substantial form. I think, from my own point of view, looking at it closely, um, Freemasonry generally has been living with a fudge for the over 300 years now. And the fudge came about when the two grand lordies joined, and they couldn't reach an agreement on how the royal art should be dealt with, and so we arrived at this compromise which we've lived with, as I say, for over 300 years now, and um we're now in a position where hopefully we're going to be harmoniously joined together, and this one journey, one organization will really catch fire. But we've always had a very, very close relationship in this province between the craft and the royal arch.

SPEAKER_02 4:34

I think that's something that as a Mason, who's been in a short period of time relatively, I always understood that the Royal Arch was the natural last um movement for that position.

SPEAKER_03 4:50

I mean, we were we were one of the first provinces, and it was when Peter was grand superintendent that introduced the Royal Arch representative scheme and where they are in in all our lodges, and unlike a lot of uh provinces, um it was agreed at that point with the provincial grandmaster who was then in power, which was Michael Rolfe, that the Grand Superintendent should actually be responsible for appointing the Royal Arch representatives. And still to this day, there are questions asked whether it should, because it's a a craft appointment, if you like, should the provincial grandmaster actually do that rather than the grand superintendent or his deputy? So there's still that element of uh trying to smooth the way as to who should do what. Um, but that will come over time.

SPEAKER_01 5:44

And it's certainly something that I'm absolutely uh 100% behind. I think it should be the selection of the grand superintendent or the deputy grand superintendent to decide who the best Royal Arch member is in that lodge to promote Royal Arch Masonry. To me, it just makes sense, and why would you do anything else?

SPEAKER_02 6:02

I totally agree.

SPEAKER_03 6:03

And as a courtesy, we do inform the provincial grandmaster who we're going to appoint.

SPEAKER_02 6:09

So it it is that link, and I think since 1813 and even previous to that, that settlement that recognised the Royal Arch while leaving that kind of cultural gap that we had there for a long time, and it sounds like Leicestershire and Rutland, our province here, has really been a little bit more advanced than maybe national looking, national ideas. How you know we that's been qu what's been the least understood reason why that separating persisted? Why, why did it why is it only now that um from the Grand Lodge point of view, United Grand Lodge point of view, that the the two organizations are now becoming one journey, one organization?

SPEAKER_01 6:53

I think as Noel said it was a fudge. And in fact, uh after the declaration was written in 1813, and I can't remember which year it was, but I guess it was somewhere around the 1980s, that they decided to drop that declaration and make a complete mess of it. Whoever decided that I decided that I don't know. But that threw the whole thing into even more confusion. Um I mean, I just can't understand why they thought it'd be it'd have been going for 200 years, why they needed to start playing around with it. But anyway, I think I think as I said earlier, I think they've now seen that how important it is, which is why we've gone to one journey, one organization, and linked the craft even closer together. And and we are a bit of an exception here in that we have separate leaders in the craft and royal arch. A lot of provinces have a dual, um, what we call a double header, which means that the PGM is also the Grand Superintendent. Um I think it's fair to say we've we've probably got mixed feelings about that, but anyway, probably enough said.

SPEAKER_03 7:54

I think also, in terms of why Grand Lodge and Supreme Grand Chapter have picked it up now, and I suppose it's been on the cards for some time, but it's when you look at the the fall-off in membership generally. Um, I think they've at last realized in London that perhaps we need to be looking at something and doing something about it, and it is a proven fact. I mean, a lot of analysis has been done that if somebody is a member of the Royal Arch, they are more likely to remain a member of the craft. And so there is a there is a synergy there that in terms of membership, um, and so as I say, it's the Royal Arch has always been there, and it's now being recognized as part of a Freemason's journey through through pure ancient masonry, which is what we're doing, and I think the emphasis now is that um you join Freemasonry now, and Freemasonry now consists of your three craft degrees and the Royal Arch. And that's that is what is coming out now. I'm sure that there will be some of the older members um who will still uh rear against this, but I think the momentum now is there, and I think the leadership in London is uh is determined that it will go forward and prosper.

SPEAKER_01 9:23

I think that's a key point. The for the fact that if you're in the Royal Arch, you do tend to stay in Freemasonry longer because you've got more knowledge, you understand more, means more to you, and the and the amendments that we've made in this province that Noel's made with his team uh in terms of the ceremonial of the exhortation ceremony and the lectures that are delivered afterwards, the the changes we've made there I think have been absolutely superb. It's made it a much more enjoyable, because it's slightly shorter, it is another reason why it's more enjoyable and more meaningful to the to the candidates. And I think the steps that have been taken are absolutely excellent. And that to me, the Royal Arch could only get better.

SPEAKER_02 10:04

I think that kind of leads into this idea of you've talked about the London taking a stance, but it's it looks like Leicestershire and Rotland and our province, particularly under previous um provincial grandmasters and superintendents, and the current um incumbents of those positions, are actually thinking of alignment of so beyond branding and the operational levers, is there already kind of a joint thinking, a joint alignment of uh shared ideas, shared calendars, shared joint ventures that the province can um look forward to. You've already talked about the Royal Arch representative, that those provincial roles, those roles that are supporting the Royal Arch, but within craft lodges.

SPEAKER_01 10:54

Yeah, I mean I mean we meet, we we meet regularly, we talk to each other regularly, we both sit on each other's executive committee meetings, which has worked really, really well. So the Royal Arch know what the craft are doing, the craft know what the Royal Arch are doing. I think that's a tremendous step forward. That's never happened before. Noel and I have introduced that when we took over. I think the other thing, um, and and I learned this when I was grand superintendent when we used to have the lunches at Great Queen Street and talk with fellow grand superintendents, we were miles ahead of a lot of the other provinces in terms of what we were doing. And I'm not taking any credit for that. It's it's it's what evolved through our executive in in in those days uh and has carried on under Noel, and um it's been incredibly successful. And we've been like you mentioned, the Royal Arch representatives. I mean, we we were one of the first in the country to do that.

SPEAKER_03 11:43

I was I was amazed when I was Deputy Grand Superintendent under Peter, um the deputy grand superintendents had a have an annual conference which I was asked to speak at in regard to our Royal Arch representative scheme, and I was absolutely flabbergasted by the other representatives from other provinces that they hadn't even heard of it. And as far as implementing it was concerned, it was it was miles away. And I think, yes, we we've been at the forefront of this for many, many years, and uh we're now hopefully in the in the stages of fine-tuning what we're doing um to the success of both the craft and the royal arch.

SPEAKER_02 12:28

I think that's um I think you've led led into where we find ourselves now in terms of archway in practice. Um how will archway be used by chapters, you know, both here and further afield, um, and how will lodges plug in so craft doesn't have this hand off and hope, as it were.

SPEAKER_03 12:51

I I think the starting point for this is that pathway, the members' pathway, which was the craft initiative, and Archway have now been amalgamated. And uh fortunately, Archway has not had to alter much in order to fit in with the members' pathway. So there is now a joint um resource there for both the craft and the royal arch. And what the Royal Arch has done in over the last sort of 12 months is we've got a membership task force which is headed by the third provincial grand principal, excellent companion Andy Green, and he's worked through Archway with his own chapter, Mawley Chapter, and they have taken the the principles in Archway and formulated a program of how they can uh implement Archway in their chapter. And what we're doing as a province now is we're taking that element of good practice and we're disseminating that through all the chapters, and hopefully the chapters will see that there is a way forward with Archway without having to go through all the detail because a lot of that work's been done by our membership team through through Andy Green and and that sort of thing. So there will be elements of good practice out there for the chapters to grab hold of and actually run with. But at the end of the day, it is up to the individual chapters. The province can do so much, but the individual chapters have got to look after their futures. As a Citing Zed, I know. We are there to support and we will support as hard as we can, but we can't run each individual chapter.

SPEAKER_01 14:44

And and Pathway, of course, is a good name because it is the pathway to lead onto Archway. A number of us were a bit surprised that the Royal Arch wasn't encompassed within Pathway when it was launched. And what Noel just said is absolutely spot on in terms of chapters and lodges looking after themselves. You know, we can't manage 80 craft lodges from the centre. Uh, you know, it is impossible. They have to um, you know, develop their care committees and and look look at ways of of identifying what what sort of lodge they are or in that or what sort of chapter they are, you know, what is their common interest, how can they attract more members? Because that's what it's all about at the end of the day. Let's not you know dress it up. I mean, I want more members in the craft, and that means Munal's got more members to get choose from in the Royal Arch.

SPEAKER_02 15:32

I suppose that's the sticking point, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 15:34

That's where where it's at. Absolutely, and uh, you know, that we've got a membership officer in in both in the craft and the royal arch, we've got mentors in the craft and the royal arch, some of them wanting the same person. But we can't magic up for the Royal Arch, you know, 20 new companions or in the craft 50 new companions at a job of that. You know, these these these have to come from the lodges, from the individuals that are members of these lodges and chapters to find new members. And this is the frustration that Noel and I have and our teams, that that you know, they just sit there and say, Well, you haven't sent us anybody. Well, no, that's not our job. We'll help and support, as Noel just said.

SPEAKER_03 16:13

But you know, it's their their responsibility to get new members, and and it's all in the name of the combined resource of pathway and archway, in that it's being called building together. Well, that makes you know, nobody can doubt what what the purpose of that is. Um, and as I say, what we're trying to do is is feed the chapters good practice to give them a direction so they can look after their own. And it's all about planning for the future. It's all about planning for the future, and I think we've been remiss at that in the past. I know my own chapter we haven't planned in the in the past, and we're now getting together and we're looking at it, and um you know we've got to take the individual companions into account and so that we can accommodate them going forward so they can progress through the various offices.

SPEAKER_02 17:10

It was interesting you talked about how um other chapters have taken on archway and have developed a system that can be rolled out across so that shared mentoring system within the province is starting to be in place and really is going to help the chapters. Uh that I mean that's great news for someone like myself as who's in the chair of a chapter, and it's really important that we know that that is there, but it's also the onus is also on the individual chapters and the leadership within the chapters to actually get um their members to be part of that chapter and live and breathe it as well as much as anything else, either through rehearsals, socials, or whatever.

SPEAKER_03 17:58

And and what we're trying to do is it's not simply for the individual principals or senior officers or senior members in the chapter, it's for the whole membership. Everybody in the chapter should be involved in looking towards the future. How can we best plan the future so we succeed and prosper in the future? And that's what we're trying to encourage the chapters to do. I think that's right. We've we've got a we've got about a I think in terms of uh take up, we've probably just over the 50% in terms of the number of chapters who've actually engaged with Archway. Um we've still got some way to go with those that haven't.

SPEAKER_02 18:38

But how how do we con how do we convince them, apart from listening to this and listening to the authenticity, that is how we must move forward?

SPEAKER_03 18:48

We just have to in we just have to keep plugging away, telling them the benefits of of of the good guidance that they're getting, the principles and everything else, and hopefully, eventually, they will take it up. But as as going back to what we said a little earlier, the individual chapters have got to want to succeed. That's the that's you know the basis of where we're going.

SPEAKER_01 19:13

That's right. And I think the other thing is that in craft and rule life, one once they have a candidate lined up, or or more than one, hopefully, then we need to keep going. I think a lot of the we've suffered a lot in craft and royal life by people sitting back and saying, Oh, we've got two candidates, that's fine. So people stop looking, stop putting AI efforts in.

SPEAKER_00 19:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:32

And what happens is the year the two candidates or one candidate comes in, and then that's it. So, you know, we've got to keep this pressure on, and as Noel said, you know, we've got to keep trying to get the messages across. Um, you know, but people have got to listen and they've got to try and help themselves to to adopt these principles uh and try and develop their membership with you know with you know with the with the right people. You know, that's the other important point, isn't it? The quality of members. If we get quality of members in the craft, then they're going to be quality of members of the Royal Arts, you would hope. I think that's a good thing.

SPEAKER_02 20:04

So one thing leads to another. You always said, uh, we make good men. And we make men better. And you have to be a good man and then a good Mason and then a good companion. That's right.

SPEAKER_03 20:15

And what we're trying to encourage again is not only the Royal Arch representative in the lodge, but all Royal Arch members in that lodge to actually talk to Master Masons about the Royal Arch at cocktails or at the at the festive board, so that that message gets over. And I think we are making progress with that, and you know, it's a case of if you repeat it often enough, people will actually take it on board. Yeah, it becomes a habit. We're we're at possibly a fairly early stage of that conversation, but I do see progress in that, and that's encouraging.

SPEAKER_02 20:51

At a recent talk, I listened to the speaker talk about um lodges used to have their own chapters, as it were, uh in the early days of Freemasonry. Now that's not so much the case. Uh uh brethren are free to go and choose a chapter of their of where they choose, maybe closer to where they live, if they live in one of the outlying parts of the nine centres that we have here in Leicestershire and Rutland, or uh they go with uh another brother to their one.

SPEAKER_03 21:24

What you know, I think traditionally that has been the case. So if you're in a lodge and one of the older members is a member of a chapter associated with that lodge, then that I suppose the natural progression would be that you would invite him to join that chapter. What we're trying to encourage now is that they look at the individual concerned and try and find a chapter that actually suits him in terms of his time and so that he's able to attend meetings. There's no point in setting getting him to join a chapter if it doesn't suit his. Work pattern, his home life. So if he can't attend meetings, it's pointless him joining. So they need to broaden their search to make sure that the chapter they join they can actually attend. And equally something that's been around for a long time, if they do join a chapter outside the one that is normally associated with their lodge, they will meet more Masons. They will widen their Masonic circle of friendship. And I think that's very important. And I think people ought to bear that in mind whenever they are considering joining the Royal Lodge.

SPEAKER_01 22:39

I think it's a key issue in the craft as well. And I and I think you know, people do tend to join the lodges that their friends have taken them into without any particular thought of the convenience of that. In other words, you know, come and join my lodge, you know, we meet on the second Tuesday and whatever, whatever, whatever. And and and and some people might just go along with that, where actually they might be better looking at their diaries, looking at their work, looking at where they live, and and it might be better for them to join another lodge. And I'm convinced this is one of the reasons that people leave because they've joined the lodge through through that type of peer pressure, if you like, for want of a better expression. And they realize it's actually not that convenient. But his mate Bill got him in there, and you know, he he's then and then he doesn't turn up a few times because he's working. So it's it's very much part of pathway and archway to say, you know, really look at this closely. Is that the right lodge for you? Is it the right chapter for you? Is it the right night? Uh, you know, etc. etc. That's crucial, I think.

SPEAKER_03 23:41

And I think from a from a their initial approach towards Freemasonry, I think we're far more attuned to uh being honest with the candidates now. And we now at the interview stage should be telling them exactly what is expected in terms of Freemasonry. So there'll be three crafter degrees plus the royal arch as and when they are ready to take that stand. I mean, when I was interviewed in in 1983, um I was I was told we meet four times a w a year, um, and that was really basically it. Um you know, do you believe in a supreme being? Yes, and you know, the rest of it you took on trust. But we're now encouraging, and Peter's very keen that the lodges do this, that they actually interview them properly, and not only the candidate, but they also involve their partner or wife, so that they know what the expectation is going forward, and don't tell somebody that the lodge meets seven times a year and the chapter meets three or four times a year, because on top of that, you've got rehearsals, you'll have social events and everything. I think we've got to be far more open with people about what time commitment there is going to be going forward. And I think if we're honest with people at the at the outset, the aspiration to join the Royal Arts will be there from the world. And the financial commitment as well, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 25:14

Which is becoming more and more with the way uh where the world at the moment, where Freemasonry is an expensive hobby. Uh it is, uh, and and and we shouldn't pretend it isn't. Um, you know, that's what Noel's saying about giving them the full story, and as he also said, quite importantly, so the wife understands what his commitments are. And and you know, that's the time to either put a stop to it or go take it forward. Uh, you need the support, as we three all know very well. Without the support of our wives, we're not you we're not going to be able to do anything like the work that we do for Freemasonry.

SPEAKER_02 25:51

And I think that's really important because these are the cultural shifts that we're seeing in a society today where there are many people who are reliant on both partners in the relationship being aware of what they're doing. Just going into the last couple of few questions and then some ideas, um, small signals to uh Master Masons who might not know uh the Royal Arch, what's insignia, um, how would they know who to speak to apart from the Royal Arch representative in a l in a lodge? Noel, I'll address this to you. Is what what would a Master Mason look for? Even a fellowcraft who has taken their second degree is due to take their third, and is he's heard of this Royal Arch.

SPEAKER_03 26:41

Well, I think as Peter mentioned early, all Royal Arch Masons are supposed to wear their Royal Arch duel in the lodge. The Royal Arch representative is able to give a report during each lodge meeting. Um and we have now in um introduced uh certain certain scripted reports that they can give, and certain reports that apply specifically to where they are when they've been initiated, where they are when they've been passed to the second degree, and where they are when they go through their third degree. And those passages relate directly to the involvement and progression through their Masonic journey with reference to the Royal Arch and there being after the third degree, there is something there is something else. So it's again it's it's baby steps, we're moving forward with it, but I think the the Royal Arch representative is crucial if we are going to increase the conversion rate of Master Masons joining the Royal Arch. And we stress this to each individual Royal Arch uh representative who we appoint. Some are very good, some are less good, and it's a question of you know making sure that they get the right message over. But at the end of the day, we're encouraged, as I said earlier, we're encouraging all Royal Arch Masons to talk to their brethren about the Royal Arch if they haven't joined.

SPEAKER_01 28:17

I mean, if you if you go back to we can go back a few years between us, um and and and the the reason that we introduced the Royal Arch rep was because of the uh fact that proposers and seconders were not what they were. I mean, the rules used to be originally you had to know somebody for five years before you could propose them into Freemasonry. Now, some years ago that was dropped. So what was happening was that people were bringing people in, uh proposers and seconders, into lodges after an interview, obviously, um, and not knowing them that well, and they were basically left on their own. So things like telling them about the royal arch and helping them through their words for their questions, uh, the first, second, third degree, etc., etc., went by the wayside. So we we needed Royal Arch reps to to tell them about the Royal Arch and promote the Royal Arch within lodges, but also we needed mentors and membership officers, which we now have. We never had those 20-30 years ago because the proposals and sanctions did that job, but that doesn't happen anymore. So that's how it's evolved, and that's why Royal Arch reps are so important, and mentors and the membership officers as well, of course.

SPEAKER_03 29:29

Well, I can only go by my own personal journey. I, as I say, I joined in 1983, I was initiated December 1983. Um, I got the position of junior deacon in my mother lodge, and my proposer came up to me and said, I think it's time you joined the Royal Arch. And at that time, you didn't question it because he was your proposer in Freemasonry and he was there to guide you, and you just took that on board. And it wasn't a question of what's the royal arch all about, it was just something that they said, we think you'll enjoy the royal arch, it'll be a benefit of and you just took that, but that situation doesn't occur very often now. You don't get that personal contact between the proposer and seconder, and one of the one of the newer things coming in for the royal art is also that you will only need one sponsor now, as of November, when it should be adopted at Supreme Grand Chapter. Um, and so it will only take one sponsor to uh nominate somebody to join a royal arts chapter. So, again, that's a a step forward in my view, because they're Freemasons anyway. So, really, do we need to go through the whole rigmarole of absolute and secondary? So it's streamlining the whole process and the join uh joint membership.

SPEAKER_01 30:53

Yeah, joining. So that's about it even closer together. Yeah, where you you pay one fee now to join craft and royal art, so we're gonna be aware of it.

SPEAKER_02 31:02

We've reduced the sticking parts that uh that have been there traditionally or historically as we move forward. Very last question or point I'd like you to answer, either between you, individually. Um speak to a craft mason in our province, thinking we'll arches for later. Give them a concise values pitch as why now.

SPEAKER_01 31:29

Well, I think it very much depends on the person, doesn't it? I I mean we've all met young or newer Freemasons who are so keen they can't get enough of it. You know, that that you see them with the book, they they want to do ritual, they want to get involved, you know, etc. etc. That's a great candidate for the Royal Arch early. Um my story is very similar to Noel's. I was a junior deacon when I was invited to be a uh a Royal Arch Mason, so I didn't realise that that was the time Noel was invited. And you know, uh I think for some people, probably that's the right time. Uh I didn't know anything about the Royal Arch when I was approached to join it, and I joined it for the same reasons that Noel did and never looked back. Um, but some people you can get into the Royal Arch early because they're lapping it up, others you might want to leave a little bit longer. You can tell fairly instantly when you get to when you get to see these new members, you can tell the sort that you need to get in early because they're lapping it up, and others you need to leave a little bit longer. So I don't think there's one size fits all with this. I think I think that is the key. You need to judge or say whoever it is needs to judge the person, the can the new member, and decide when when you think and he thinks is the right time for him.

SPEAKER_03 32:43

And I would strongly endorse that. I you know each individual is different, and they will they will make their own decision when that that journey goes. But I think the big thing is now we're talking to them about it, whereas before it it it it wasn't spoken of. It wasn't spoken of. And I think that's the big that's the big change as I see going forward. And I think it's gonna take time because now the the people who are joining Freemasonry now, who are initiated now, they will have had the proper interview, they will know that it's a four-stage journey. We will keep that narrative going through the through the lodges and through the chapters that it is a four-stage. So encouraging our Master Masons to join. But I think we will see a bigger change, say, in two, three, four, five years' time, when there will be that expectation that when am I going to join the the Royal Arch? Because they've been told at day one there are four stages.

SPEAKER_02 33:52

I think that's all I would like to offer up. If there's anything either one of you would like to say at this time, but I'd like to say thank you very much to Peter Kinder, head of Leicestershire Freemasonry, and to Noel Mamby, the uh head of Rural Arch Masonry in Leicestershire and Rutland, and to you out there. Thank you very much for listening, and we look forward to welcoming you to the next show in a couple of months' time. Bye-bye now. That's all for this episode of Square Talk, the podcast for Freemasons, and for everyone interested in learning more about the people, principles, and community spirit behind the craft. My thanks go to Peter and Noel for sharing their stories and thoughts on Archway and for helping us to better understand how craft and warlatch Freemasonry are united through this exciting initiative. And a big thank you to you, our listeners. Whether you're a Freemason yourself or just simply curious about what we do, we're glad to have you with us. If you've enjoyed the conversation, be sure to follow Square Talk on your favourite podcast platform and share it with your lodge, chapter, or friends who might enjoy discovering more about free Freemasonry. I'm Jason Clothier, and until next time, take care, keep talking, and keep the Square at the heart of all you do.